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A Good Idea
Published on October 12, 2003 By russellmz In Politics
While reading over some Joeuser articles I noticed that there was a surprising lack of support for universal suffrage. In the comments section I listed my opinion that universal suffrage is necessary. I went on a soapbox a couple times and wrote a bit on my beliefs.

The social evolution of the United States voting requirements changed through the centuries. Requirements were at first, only white male landowners, then white males, then women and blacks, finally the United States' proud achievement of the 26th Amendment. To me, this idea made sense and like the abolishment of slavery, need not be defended in modern times.

But in the comments section there was actually support for limiting voting rights. I was astounded. To be honest, I could barely write a coherent argument and had to spend a bit of time and thought in formulating my responses. After making a few comments, I decided to list why I thought universal suffrage was good. Some of the below reasons are specific to some arguments and do not apply to all arguments against the present universal suffrage in America. The arguments consisted in taking away the right to vote from a non-majority of voters, and NOT a racial group. When I write "minority" below I mean it as a percentage.

1. A minority without a vote is vulnerable
Without the right to vote a minority has no voice. With no reason to protect or coddle them for votes, politicians are free to scapegoat and mistreat the minority group. They can take away from the non-voting minority without a fight and give to the voting members.

The Bill of Rights and the Supreme Court were mentioned as protection for the non-voting population. But with a minority with no vote, a President can eventually be nominate judges that are friendly to the voting majority. Congress can amend the Bill of Rights to suit the needs of the voting population. With no vote, the minority can do nothing to stop it.

2. The minority's right to vote is taken away for what they might do
One of the reasons for removing the right to vote for some is that if they paid no taxes, they should have no say in how it is spent. In other words, a large number of non-taxpayers can say that taxpayer money be spent on social programs to benefit non-taxpayers. This seems fair. Afterall, why should they get a say when they didn't contribute?

But what if some of the minority agreed and would vote down social programs? These people are punished because they might have done the "wrong" thing.

People vote about stuff they don't have to pay the price for all the time. In a war, should only soldiers be allowed to vote as they are the ones who will be "paying" with their lives? Should only the rich vote on mortage tax rates? The young on Social Security and Medicare?

3. Universal suffrage prevents violence.
This is one of many subjects where I have little expertise and my argument is conjecture and theory. But one of the most amazing things about the United States is the relatively low level of domestic terrorism. (Not to be confused with terrorism from outside groups like Al Queda) Domestic terrorism is often an outbreak of frustration due to inability of getting a point of view across. Countries with a free press, voting rights, and freedom of speech allow fringe groups to speak their mind. Without it, they turn to violence to get their message out. Expect violence to happen as angry non-voters lash out.

4. Cutting a voter base increases the power of extremists.
I made a graph in MS Paint. Isn't it pretty? Again, personal theory and conjecture.



The above demonstrates how cutting a voter base can increase extremistism. With a large voter base (A), extremists on both sides help cancel each other out, like a solution of water with both bleach and sulfuric acid in it. In fact, the number of blue and red extremists seems to be small to begin with at 10% each. But suppose the blue 40% of the eligible population is denied their right to vote ( leaving only the 60% red population. Now the percentage of extremists in the red population has remained the same, but if there is an even split among the red on some related decision, the red extremists make up one-third of the opposition!

Not only that, but extremists are more likely to vote than half-hearted supporters. They are more powerful and politicians are more likely to listen to them. And there is no blue counter-balance to keep them in check. Oh, they can scream and yell, but no one cares since they can't vote.

5. Arbitrary Limits (stole this one from someone else in the comments of the linked article)
The suggestions for limiting the right to vote included taxes paid and intelligence. For some the reason seemed arbitrary. Why taxes paid? In fact, why only "x" amount and not x-$100? I remember reading of a white landowner's arguing for removing the landownership requirement. He said that if through some freak of nature, a disaster would cause him to lose everything, he would lose the right to vote. But since he was the same man that he was before the disaster, why is it he could not vote?

6. It is wrong to place a group of people at the mercy of another group of people.
Related to #1. This is just a belief. I do not think a group of people should have to depend on the kindness of strangers for their rights. It can only lead to trouble. It is easy to say, "We won't do anything bad" or "Trust us", but the reason the right to vote has been so sought after, fought for so much, is that it allows a person or a people to have a chance, to protect themselves and to effect change.

(edited to fix the pic and some small math/concept errors)

Comments (Page 2)
2 Pages1 2 
on Oct 20, 2003
russellmz2: a few points to consider. I am also an immigrant. My parents and grandparents while not as fluent in english as in spanish made it a point to be functionaly literate in english to read newspapers and be able to understand to english language radio and television as well as spanish media. They made it a point to be able to read and understand an english language ballot.

What part of the fact that if all voters are equal at the ballot then the person who pays little or nothing has a proprtionaly greater vote than the person paying millions in taxes do you not understand?
Tell me again just what extra benefits a maximum rate taxpayer gets from the federal government that the average person gets? A special lane on the interstate? A response by the FBI when calling for a 911 call? I don't know how old you are but I remember when Carter was president paying income taxes at the 70% level. That my friend is called progrssive conmfiscation.
Social security a tax? You mean FDR and the democrats lied when they claimed that it is an old age insurance plan? That the government lies when I get my annual statement of future benefits from the social security administration. No friend it cannot be a tax, it must be an insurance premium. Just like a life insurance or disability plan.

"theoretically, if you are a property owner, you have a decent job, and are budgeting to account for the fact you have to pay taxes, and are not poor. plus, since you own property you are likely not paying rent to someone else? (i am making some assumptions here as to why)" You sure are. Ever heard of proposition 13 in California?
Unless your super wealthy and live modestly to your means, can anyone know what their earnings will be with absolute certainty 10 or 20 years in the future? At least with an income tax you what you will pay in any given year.

"the house of representatives does more than allocate spending. to mix up the example i gave above, do you think in times of war only soldiers should be allowed to vote? they have to "pay" the price of war. and the possiblity of any of the top 10% being a soldier is probably less than any other group, but they will probably have many foreign investments to protect. so should the top 10% votes be taken away since they are getting more property protection at the cost of soldiers' lives who are not part of the top 10%?" Just like the police and firemen, the military is a volunteer force. When you join you know the risk you take. Using your logic should cops and prison guards be the only ones who should vote on matters relating to law enforcement? I never stated that only those who pay taxes should be allowd to vote. I stated that taxpayers (net taxpayers) should have the right to vote for the house of representatives where all spending bills originate. Yes the house does allocate more than spending. But then again the president and the senate also have a say in allocating spending. Now tell me again why is it moral for one person to pay a thousand times more than another and still have the same vote.


on Oct 20, 2003
Some very interesting points above.

Do people believe that voting is a right or a privledge?

If a right then it should never be taken away once given. Felons therefore should be allowed vote.

If a privledge then it should be earned and the privledge needs to be maintained. Whether theis is through paying taxes, being informed, voting, serving your country, etc.

Sounds like we have people arguing both sides of this one. I fall on the 'it's a right' category, but believe that government needs to work much harder to encourage people to take and interest and excerise their right.

Paul.
on Oct 20, 2003
cubanbob (i moved some of my best responses up so things are not in 100% order):
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Now tell me again why is it moral for one person to pay a thousand times more than another and still have the same vote.
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because one person is equal to another under the law, as you mentioned earlier.

the voting booth doesn't care if you got a purple heart, an alcoholism problem, twenty-three kids, no kids, or a solid gold roll royce. one man, one vote.

a priest, a rabbi, a medal of honor recipient, an 18-year, and a billionaire walk into a bar. they all voted for different people. the vote for each counted as one vote. are the priest, rabbi, 18-year old, and medal of honor recipient immoral because they think each one of their votes should be equal to the vote of the billionaire?

i think most people's brains are as good at picking a congressman as yours, or draginol's, or bill gates' or the hilton sisters (the rich model playgirl heirs to the hilton hotel chain).


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"the house of representatives does more than allocate spending. to mix up the example i gave above, do you think in times of war only soldiers should be allowed to vote? they have to "pay" the price of war. and the possiblity of any of the top 10% being a soldier is probably less than any other group, but they will probably have many foreign investments to protect. so should the top 10% votes be taken away since they are getting more property protection at the cost of soldiers' lives who are not part of the top 10%?" Just like the police and firemen, the military is a volunteer force. When you join you know the risk you take. Using your logic should cops and prison guards be the only ones who should vote on matters relating to law enforcement? I never stated that only those who pay taxes should be allowd to vote. I stated that taxpayers (net taxpayers) should have the right to vote for the house of representatives where all spending bills originate. Yes the house does allocate more than spending. But then again the president and the senate also have a say in allocating spending.
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actually i was using YOUR logic to prove my point. i'm the one advocating for the right to vote, remember? by saying it's ok to limit the vote because of money, but soldiers and cops are different, you're putting property in front of life in importance.

this is actually kinda funny since the presidency and senate were the parts of gevernment that weren't in direct control of the voting population in the original constitution! the electoral college and state legislatures were supposed to elect them. so under your system, the inmates still get a say in running the asylum since they still get a hand in deciding the senate and president.

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Do you and russellmz2 believe that there should be no restrictions or qualifactions on the right to vote? Should minors, the profoundly retarded,criminals illegal aliens the legaly insane as well as the comatose and dead also should have the right to vote? Indeed should everyone on the planet also be allowed to vote in American national elections? Should any and all restrictions on universal sufferage be lifted?
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as i mentioned in my previous post: i didn't mention 5-year olds in my original article but, no, i don't think they should vote. if the comatose/dead filled out and mailed his ballot out before the accident/sickness i believe it should count. the "profoundly" retarded will no doubt be unable to vote in probably 99.999999999999999% of cases. should we add a 'are you retarded' test? what if a retarded guy managed to fill out his form and walk to the voting booth? no, i don't think non-citizens should vote. when i mentioned the proud achievement of the 26th amendment, i pretty much agreed that was a reasonable standard. and as i mentioned above, all but three states have limits on criminal voting rights.


cubanbob:
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russellmz2: a few points to consider. I am also an immigrant. My parents and grandparents while not as fluent in english as in spanish made it a point to be functionaly literate in english to read newspapers and be able to understand to english language radio and television as well as spanish media. They made it a point to be able to read and understand an english language ballot.
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that's cool. what nationality are you?

what sort of test would you make so that they could pass it but a non-english speaker could not? how would the test be done: in person when registering?

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What part of the fact that if all voters are equal at the ballot then the person who pays little or nothing has a proprtionaly greater vote than the person paying millions in taxes do you not understand?
Tell me again just what extra benefits a maximum rate taxpayer gets from the federal government that the average person gets? A special lane on the interstate? A response by the FBI when calling for a 911 call?
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do you believe that the top 10% are less powerful or influential in the political process than any other 10% group?

yes, 90% of the voter population has a greater vote than 10% of the voter population as i mentioned above. but 1 rich vote = 1 poor vote.


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I don't know how old you are but I remember when Carter was president paying income taxes at the 70% level. That my friend is called progrssive conmfiscation.
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why did the bottom 90% allow the taxe rate to go down? momentary mass insanity? reaasonable discourse that convinced them? why can't that be done today instead of "don't let them vote on spending". are they stupider? crazier? greedier? more evil? more immoral?


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Social security a tax? You mean FDR and the democrats lied when they claimed that it is an old age insurance plan? That the government lies when I get my annual statement of future benefits from the social security administration. No friend it cannot be a tax, it must be an insurance premium. Just like a life insurance or disability plan.
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i made a remark that social security was regressive. going on about how democrats, government, and fdr are liars does not convince me my remark was wrong.


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"theoretically, if you are a property owner, you have a decent job, and are budgeting to account for the fact you have to pay taxes, and are not poor. plus, since you own property you are likely not paying rent to someone else? (i am making some assumptions here as to why)" You sure are. Ever heard of proposition 13 in California?
Unless your super wealthy and live modestly to your means, can anyone know what their earnings will be with absolute certainty 10 or 20 years in the future? At least with an income tax you what you will pay in any given year.
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nope, never heard of it. uh, did you mean property tax will tell you what you will pay any year?

i think you're right, i just read a post in another board how the a lot of those considered poor in america own their own homes and property. the reason is that a lot of the elderly and in agrian areas own their own homes but still may not have a large income.




Reply By: Mr_Frog Posted: Monday, October 20, 2003
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The gerund is whizzing. I'll have my bonus points now
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sweet!
on Oct 20, 2003
I think our current requirements for voting are just fine. The only thing I would change is to ensure that convicted felons always be allowed to vote once they have done their time and/or made whatever restitution required by the court. I feel not allowing them to vote is a form of double jeopardy.

"Quite true,wisdom and common sense are not directly directly proportional to IQ. The radical left is proof positive of that."--cubanbob

As is the radical right (or radical anything for that matter).
on Oct 21, 2003
Clearly one thing we need is a better quoting setup so that it's easier to quote.

I tend to agree with CubanBob up to a point (btw, you should create an accoutn CubanBob so that you score points from your comments).

I do believe that everyone should have to pay some sort of minimal federal tax in order to be allowed to vote or they need to serve in the military.
on Oct 23, 2003
Reply By: Draginol
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Clearly one thing we need is a better quoting setup so that it's easier to quote.
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now, if only there was a person..someone who could speed up the process of getting a quote system in place...someone high up in stardock, perhaps...

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I do believe that everyone should have to pay some sort of minimal federal tax in order to be allowed to vote or they need to serve in the military.
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what about non-chaplain priests? not only do they not have to file income taxes at all, they take a vow of poverty!
on Oct 24, 2003
Reply By: Draginol
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I do believe that everyone should have to pay some sort of minimal federal tax in order to be allowed to vote or they need to serve in the military.
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I'd rather see everyone vote. The problem isn't people who don't pay tax getting to vote, the problem is people not contributing to the society they get to vote in. The right to vote should be sacred. The problem is ensuring that all those who vote (the entire population) are contributing to society. Whether through the work they do (charity, military, ...), paying taxes, raising kids, etc.

Paul
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